Rally History (part III)

[januszsz]

Originally Posted by jrally One question which is history now .... Does someone where I can find the final complete results of Rallyes Yalta and Georgia of this year ? Thanks in advance Best regards jorge

Jo, are you sure that Georgia Rally was held? I am afraid there was only armoured brigades rally on Georgia and it was won by Red Army
Regards
Janusz

[jrally]

Originally Posted by januszsz Jo, are you sure that Georgia Rally was held? I am afraid there was only armoured brigades rally on Georgia and it was won by Red Army Regards Janusz

I think You are right, Janusz !
But as I see it on FIA events list (which is actualized) I wanted to be sure !

And what about Yalta ? They have a english part of the site but they allways forget to publish the final classification .... I try all the items in cirilic but I'm not able to find them .....

To the organizers if they read this .....
Is it so difficult to publish the classification in the english part of the site ?!?!

Best regards
jorge

[RiN]

Originally Posted by jrally One question, Who co-drove Carl Schindler in Austria 66 ? Thanks jorge

The German quarterly magazine MOTOR REVUE gives Naber as Schindler's co-driver. BUT, I for one, do not think they were among the first ten, although I have a source, MOTORÅRET, which says so.
In Martin Pfundner's book DIE ALPENFAHRT 1910-1970, which I have found very reliable, the author says on page 145:

'Grosse Anerkennung verdient auch der kleine Skoda 1000 MB, der mit den Fahrern Václav Bobek jun. / V.Rieger auf dem 7. und Oldrich Horsák / Miroslav Fousek auf dem 10. Platz der Gesamtwertung landete.'

The class-results given in MOTOR REVUE correspond with this a long way, as there would have been at least two other cars placed above Schindler / Naber.
So this is what I believe is correct, but prove me wrong, and I'll bite the dust :-)

1.Paddy Hopkirk / Ron Crellin 0 2500,00
2.Gunter Wallrabenstein / Ernst Otto Müller 0 2447,41
3.Alfred Burkhardt / Otto Koch-Bodes 0 2218,87
4.Herbert Kleint / Günther Klapproth 1 2102,30
5-E.Buchbauer-Geri Brandstetter 2 2115,97
6-Helmuth Klomfart-Ernst Marquart 3 2170,16
7-Václav Bobek-Vojtech Rieger 3 2114,72
8-Gernot Fischer-Franz Mauerhofer 5 2322,83
9-Alois Wiener-Antonie Wiener 6 2330,44 or 2282,83
10-Oldrich Horsak / Miroslav Fousek ???

König / Thaler 6 2249,71
Lieskonig / Hörmann 7 2037,73
Schindler / Naber 8 2379,95

Tom

[jrally]

Thanks Tom,

when we think that we have accurate results there it comes another classification. But that's also why these things are interesting and funny ! Because we have to restart again all the researchs.

The problem is allways 'What source should I trust ? "
For instance, regarding Tulipen 67 you've trust MOTORÅRET but in this You trust more in MOTOR REVUE.

Sometimes we found a result in a magazine and because we don't have another alternative source we allways claim 'That's the correct one' and we told everyone that ... but many times it isn't ...

I think results from 50 and 60 are a little bit like that !

Best regards
jorge

[RiN]

Originally Posted by jrally Thanks Tom, when we think that we have accurate results there it comes another classification. But that's also why these things are interesting and funny ! Because we have to restart again all the researchs. The problem is allways 'What source should I trust ? " For instance, regarding Tulipen 67 you've trust MOTORÅRET but in this You trust more in MOTOR REVUE. Sometimes we found a result in a magazine and because we don't have another alternative source we allways claim 'That's the correct one' and we told everyone that ... but many times it isn't ... I think results from 50 and 60 are a little bit like that ! Best regards jorge

True.
Regarding reliable sources, after reseraching for a while, you get a feeling of who/what to trust. But when you've got three different sources where there's no indication that they have copied each other, and two of them fits in with each other, you tend to belive that's right, although it's no proof.

It seems like it's only a handful of us here that's interested in this '50/'60's stuff. Maybe we should pool our findings, and where there's differences we could discuss our respective sources and maybe end up with the most likely result. If not all, at least some problems could be ironed out that way.


Tom

[januszsz]

I am looking for a list of Swedish Rally Champions of 50's (was it held in 50's?) and then of 60's and 70's. Anybody can help me? (more result than just the winners wellcomed).
Regards
Janusz

[RiN]

Originally Posted by januszsz I am looking for a list of Swedish Rally Champions of 50's (was it held in 50's?) and then of 60's and 70's. Anybody can help me? (more result than just the winners wellcomed). Regards Janusz

1965:

1. Bengt Söderström, Ford Cortina GT/Lotus 29
2. Tom Trana, Volvo 122S 27
3. Lars-Ingvar Ytterbring, BMC Cooper 25
4. Björn Waldegård, VW 1500/1600 24
5. Harry Källström, BMC Cooper 21
6. Ove Andersson, Saab Sport 20
7. Berndt Jansson, Renault Gordini 20
8. Åke Andersson, Saab Sport 18
9. Lars Krall, BMC Cooper 17
10.Ove Eriksson, Opel Rekord 14


1966:

Gr.1:
1. Lillebror Nasenius, Opel Rekord 43
2. Anders Gullberg, Opel Rekord 35
3. Lars-Ingvar Ytterbring, BMC Cooper 30
4. Leif Nilsson, VW 1600 28
5. Bertil Söderström, Opel Rekord 24
6. Ryno Larsson, Opel Kadett 21
7. Jan Henriksson, Opel Kadett 21
8. Bo Johansson, VW 1600 20
=. Carl Carlsson, Opel Rekord 20
10.Bengt Karlsson, VW 1600 15


Gr.2:
1. Tom Trana, Volvo 122S 43
2. Åke Andersson, Saab Sport 40
3. Carl Orrenius, Saab Sport 35
4. Håkan Lindberg, Renault Gordini 26
5. Harry Källström, BMC Cooper 24
=. Bengt Söderström, Ford Cortina Lotus 24
7. Ove Andersson, Ford Cortina Lotus 22
8. Björn Waldegård, VW 1600 19
9. Ove Eriksson, Opel Rekord 18
10.Anders Sigurdsson , Saab Sport/Volvo 122S 16


Tom

[januszsz]

Originally Posted by RiN 1965: 1. Bengt Söderström, Ford Cortina GT/Lotus 29 2. Tom Trana, Volvo 122S 27 3. Lars-Ingvar Ytterbring, BMC Cooper 25 4. Björn Waldegård, VW 1500/1600 24 5. Harry Källström, BMC Cooper 21 6. Ove Andersson, Saab Sport 20 7. Berndt Jansson, Renault Gordini 20 8. Åke Andersson, Saab Sport 18 9. Lars Krall, BMC Cooper 17 10.Ove Eriksson, Opel Rekord 14 1966: Gr.1: 1. Lillebror Nasenius, Opel Rekord 43 2. Anders Gullberg, Opel Rekord 35 3. Lars-Ingvar Ytterbring, BMC Cooper 30 4. Leif Nilsson, VW 1600 28 5. Bertil Söderström, Opel Rekord 24 6. Ryno Larsson, Opel Kadett 21 7. Jan Henriksson, Opel Kadett 21 8. Bo Johansson, VW 1600 20 =. Carl Carlsson, Opel Rekord 20 10.Bengt Karlsson, VW 1600 15 Gr.2: 1. Tom Trana, Volvo 122S 43 2. Åke Andersson, Saab Sport 40 3. Carl Orrenius, Saab Sport 35 4. Håkan Lindberg, Renault Gordini 26 5. Harry Källström, BMC Cooper 24 =. Bengt Söderström, Ford Cortina Lotus 24 7. Ove Andersson, Ford Cortina Lotus 22 8. Björn Waldegård, VW 1600 19 9. Ove Eriksson, Opel Rekord 18 10.Anders Sigurdsson , Saab Sport/Volvo 122S 16 Tom

Thank you Tom. I didn't dream top 10 is possible to get. It is interesting if other champions of 60's and 70's are available?
Regards
Janusz

[RiN]

1967:

Gr.1:
1. Lillebror Nasenius, Opel Rekord 43
2. Jan Henriksson, Opel Rekord 37
3. Anders Gullberg, Opel Rekord 33
4. Leif Nilsson, Porsche 912 30
5. Albin Griberg, Porsche 912 27
6. Håkan Lindberg, Saab V4 24
7. Lars Ingvar Ytterbring, BMC Cooper 22
8. Hans Avelin, Saab V4 15
9. Olle Bromark, Saab V4 14
10.Bo Johansson, Porsche 912 13

Gr.2:
1. Per Tjerneld, Opel Rekord 36
2. Björn Waldegård, Porsche 911 29
3. Tom Trana, Volvo 122S 27
4. Olof Karlberg, Volvo 122S 26
5. Ove Eriksson, Opel Rekord 25
6. Sven Simonsson, Volvo 122S 21
7. Jan Eneqvist, Opel Rekord 20
8. Carl Orrenius, Saab V4 15
9. Sylvia Ôsterberg, Renault Gordini 14
10.Ingemar Frohm, Ford Cortina Lotus 12



1968:

Gr.1:
1. Lillebror Nasenius, Opel Rekord 107
2. Lars Skoglund, Renault Gordini 94
3. Albin Griberg, Porsche 912 75
4. Åke Nilsson, Renault Gordini 75
5. Sune Danielsson, Opel Rekord 66
6. Jan Eric Tonebrand, BMC Cooper 62
7. Christer Bååth, Audi 55
8. Hans Avelin, Opel Rekord 48
9. Jan-Åke Olsson, Opel Rekord 41,5
10.Lars Carlsson, Porsche 912 40

Gr.2:
1. Tom Trana, Saab V4 96
2. Håkan Lindberg, Saab V4 95
3. Björn Waldegård, Porsche 911L 87
4. Stig Blomqvist, Saab V4 82
5. Anders Kulläng, Opel Rallye Kadett 63
6. Per Eklund, Saab V4 63
7. Bengt Söderström, Ford Cortina Lotus/Escort TC 60
8. Lars Nyström, Porsche 911L 58
9. Åke Andersson, Porsche 911L 58
10.Per Tjerneld, Opel Rallye Kadett 52

[RiN]

1969:

Gr.1:
1. Lillebror Nasenius, Opel Rekord Sprint/Kadett Rallye 94
2. Jan Henriksson, Opel Kadett Rallye 92
3. Lennart Eliasson, BMW 1600 TI 78,5
4. Jan Erik Tonebrand, Opel Kadett Rallye 75
5. Curt Bristam, BMW 1600 TI 73
6. Per-Erikk Eriksson, BMW 1600 TI 73
7. Carl Olov Sahlsten, Opel Kadett Rallye 55
8. Bror Danielsson, Opel Kadett Rallye 44
9. Gunnar Blomqvist, Opel Kadett Rallye 41
10.Rune Åhlin, Opel Kadett Rallye 34


Gr.2:
1. Ove Eriksson, Opel Kadett Rallye 95
2. Håkan Lindberg, Saab V4 87
3. Stig Blomqvist, Saab V4 74
4. Björn Waldegård, Porsche 911 69
5. Carl Orrenius, Saab V4 69
6. Lars Ingvar Ytterbring, Opel Kadett Rallye 66
7. Anders Kulläng, Opel Kadett Rallye 56
8. Tom Trana, Saab V4 56
9. Per Tjerneld, Vauxhall Viva GT 41
10.Rolf Andersson, Volvo 142S 36



1970:

Gr.1:
1. Lillebror Nasenius, Opel Kadett Rallye 102
2. Gunnar Blomqvist, Opel Kadett Rallye 94
3. Anders Kulläng, Opel Kadett Rallye 91
4. Arne Allansson, BMW 2002 TI 76
5. Carl Olov Sahlsten, BMW 2002 TI 67
6. Ove Olsson, BMW 2002 TI 67
7. Anders Gullberg, BMW 2002 TI 63
8. Hans Olof Wilén, BMW 1600 TI 62
9. Bror Danielsson, Opel Kadett Rallye 41
10.Sylvia Österberg, Opel Kadett Rallye 40

Gr.2:
1. Ove Eriksson, Opel Kadett Rallye 104
2. Stig Blomqvist, Saab V4 96
3. Carl Orrenius, Saab V4 84
4. Jan Henriksson, Opel Kadett Rallye 68
5. Rolf Andersson, Volvo 142S 68
6. Lars Ingvar Ytterbring, Opel Kadett Rallye 67
7. Lars Carlsson, Volvo 142S 60
8. Stig Larsson, Saab V4 52
9. Håkan Lindberg, Saab V4 47
10.Per Eklund, Saab V4 47

[januszsz]

Tom, you are great! Thank you very much.
Regards
Janusz

[RiN]

1971:

Gr.1:
1. Anders Kulläng, Opel Kadett Rallye 67
2. Lillebror Nasenius, Opel Kadett Rallye 52
3. Ingvar Carlsson, BMW 2002 50
4. Anders Gullberg, BMW 2002 46
5. Lars Ingvar Ytterbring, Opel Kadett Rallye 44
6. Gunnar Blomqvist, Opel Kadett Rallye 44
7. Arne Allansson, BMW 2002 42
8. Anders Käll, BMW 2002 40
9. Håkan Lindberg, Fiat 125 33
10.Sylvia Österberg, Opel Kadett Rallye 24

Gr.2:
1. Stig Blomqvist, Saab V4 69
2. Ove Eriksson, Opel Kadett Rallye 57
3. Per Eklund, Saab V4 54
4. Per Inge Walfridsson, Volvo 142S 50
5. Tom Trana, Saab V4 31
6. Lars Nyström, BMW 2002 25
7. Sven Simonsson, Volvo 142S 25
8. Anders Stenström, Saab V4 19
9. Bert Gustavsson, Ford Escort TC/Volvo 142S 19
10.Lasse Jönsson, Saab V4 18




1972:

Gr.1:
1. Ingvar Carlsson, BMW 2002 56
2. Lillebror Nasenius, Opel Ascona 53
3. Anders Gullberg, BMW 2002 40
4. Leif Asterhag, BMW 2002 37
5. Arne Allansson, Opel Ascona 36
6. Jan Henriksson, Opel Ascona 33
7. Lars Carlsson, Opel Ascona 31
8. Per-Olof Flogner, Opel Kadett 24
9. Bror Danielsson, Opel Ascona 21
10.Gunnar Blomqvist, Opel Ascona 20

Gr.2:
1. Anders Kulläng, Opel Ascona 46
2. Carl Orrenius, Saab V4 43
3. Stig Blomqvist, Saab V4 35
4. Lars Nyström, Opel Ascona 32
5. Sven Simonsson, Volvo 142S 31
6. Lars Ingvar Ytterbring, Datsun 1600 30
7. Ove Eriksson, Opel Ascona 29
8. Bert Gustavsson, Volvo 142S 28
9. Per Eklund, Saab V4 23
10.Karl-Olof Sahlsten, Opel Ascona 23



1973:

Gr.1:
1. Bror Danielsson, BMW 2002 TII 58
2. Ruben Börjesson, Opel Ascona 43
3. Ingvar Carlsson, BMW 2002 TI 39
4. Bengt Nilsson, Opel Ascona 35
5. Arne Allansson, BMW 2002 TI 28
6. Sylvia österberg, Opel Ascona 28
7. Per Olof Flogner, Opel Ascona 28
8. Roger Eriksson, Opel Ascona 25
9. Erik Johansson, Opel Ascona 23
10.Morgan örneus, Opel Ascona 23

Gr.2:
1. Stig Blomqvist, Saab V4 58
2. Per Eklund, Saab V4 58
3. Lasse Jansson, Saab V4 39
4. Anders Kulläng, Opel Ascona 39
5. Lillebror Nasenius, Opel Ascona 25
6. Curt Göransson, BMW 2002 TI 25
7. Roger Johansson, Saab V4 23
8. Ove Eriksson, Opel Ascona 22
9. Gunnar Blomqvist, Opel Ascona 20
10.Per Inge Walfridsson, Volvo 142S 14

[januszsz]

Excellent job, Tom!
Regards
Janusz

[55spyder]

Couldn't find a history section someone told me was in this section ?

so here goes anyway>

need these results - please .

Thx in advance,

[januszsz]

Originally Posted by 55spyder Couldn't find a history section someone told me was in this section ? so here goes anyway> need these results - please . Thx in advance,

Just only top 6:
1. Jean-Marie Carron/Pierre Schaer-CH-Porsche Carrera RS 3h14m47s
2. Andrzej jaroszewicz/Ryszard Zyszkowski-PL-Lancia Stratos HF 3h17m33s
3. Federico Cane/Gaetano Orlando-I-Fiat 124 Spyder Abarth 3h20m26
4. Eros Medici/Claudio Sannitz-CH-Porsche Carrera RS 3h30m35s
5. Werner Schweizer/Bernd Ostmann-D-Opel Kadett GT/E 3h31m07s
6. Alberto Mella/Giancarlo Borro-I-Alfa Romeo 3h32m54s
... 31 finishers

Regards
Janusz

[55spyder]

Thx much Januszsz ,

How about 1976 333 Minuti .

Top 20 ? (or any - starting at top)

Anyone ?

PS - what's the subtitle to find this section on the Forum (i can't - had to back door by searching for my last post in general forum search !!).

Thx , in advance

55spyder

[jirka rk]

Hi, my results of Rallye Lugano 1976:
1. J.M.Carron / P.Schaer CH Porsche Carrera
2. A.Jaroszewicz / R.Żyszkowski PL Lancia Stratos HF
3. F.Cane / G.Orlando CH Fiat 124 Abarth
4. E.Medici / C.Sannitz CH Porsche Carrera
5. W.Schweizer / B.Ostmann Opel Kadett GT/E
6. A.Mella / G-C.Borro Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV
7. G.Pozzi / A.Isanz Alfa Romeo 2000 GTV
8. S.Galfetti / G.Bernasconi Opel Ascona
9. F.Gerard / D.Vanoutryve Simca 1000 Rally II
10. M.Romanello / I.Romanello Alfa Romeo Alfasud

[55spyder]

Thank you again Januszsz

And thank you also Jirka RK ,

Can either of you provide me with any source of these 1976 Rallye de Lugano Results ?

I know they are correct - but I am needing to prove them to someone beyond any refute.

As the results for this rallye in 1976 (as far as I can tell ) was the differance for the end result of the National Rallye Championship of CH for 1976 !

At their website's Palmares (archives) webpage :

http://www.swissrally.ch/archives/ (go to 1976)


They not only list Andre Savary/ Jean-Robert Corthay as 1st place finishers of this rallye ??? (which in reality - it seems that Savary / Corthay were not even in the top 10 !).

The listed finishes (on THEIR website) of :

3rd - Carl-Ludwig Locher/Ueli Krebs

4th - Raymond Balmer/Michel Roetlisberger

5th - Eros Medici/Claudio Sannitz

Do not seem correct either as (even if they are ONLY listing the Swiss entrant results in their own National Championship series).

In actuality , it looks like Medici /Sannitz should be the correct 2nd place finisher (in their CH Championship).

As again (like Savary) Balmer or Locher , in reality, were not even in top 10 finishers either !!.
------------------------------

But again (it looks to me) that even more critical is their mistake between finisher #1 & #2 of this rallye .

For the Correct finish of Carron at 1st overall (besides just first of their Swiss Entrants).

Should have made him the actual 1976 CH National Rallye Champion and not Savary ! (as they have listed)

And it would probably also change the final positions of #2 - 5 of this National Championship Series.
------------------------------

The first overall of finish of Carron agree's not only my other sourced results :


http://www.bilhistorie.no/ (hit "bilsport" at top - then below "1976")


Lugano: Jean-Marie Carron/Sclair – Porsche Carrera RS (actually Schaer)
----------------------

But I was also told through a friend of J-M. Carron DIRECTLY - that he was the overall winner of this rallye.

AND long ago I was told he was a consecutive years CH National Rallye Champion (in the mid 70's)

So these fact's also correlate there also.

-----------------------

So i would very much appreciate Irrefutable evidence of this 1976 lugano results (magazine or newspaper reports ).


PS - again , I am also looking to verify top overall finishers of the 1976 333 Minuti.

I am trying to figure out if j-m. Carron was first overall . Or just first of the Swiss.

From Carron himself - he said first overall (i believe he meant overall period - not just of the Swiss , but i was not there to clarify) .

Thus I am searching for listings or anyones knoledge of Top overall 1976 333 Minuti results.

Because also at:

http://www.bilhistorie.no/ (hit "bilsport" at top - then below "1976")

this result for 1976 333 Minuti is listed :

Winner - 333 Minuti: Adartico Vudafieri/Bonaga – Lancia Stratos HF ????
If anyone can help - please do.

[januszsz]

In my opinion it is possible that only part of Lugano Rally (first day? or first leg) was valid for national championship and just only Swiss drivers were to score points. Results sent by Jirka are the final result of etire international (ERC) rally. I can imagine that Savary was the best Swiss after day 1 then retired next day.
That situation was common during Poland Rally. In 60's only first day was valid for Polish Rally Championship and in 70's and 80's only first day was valid for Peace & Friendship Cup. So why not in Switerland?
It is just only a suggestion. I don't know the truth in fact.
Regards
Janusz

[55spyder]

Note-

I was checking to see if anyone replied to my continued post (bored, I guess).

And I noticed a statement I could clarify (since it will not allow me to edit above ?)
-------------------
Although these (1976 Lugano) correct results WOULD re-shuffle the top 5 finshers of the 1976 CH Rally Championship series overall.

in this statement :

"In actuality , it looks like Medici /Sannitz should be the correct 2nd place finisher (in their CH Championship)."

I MEANT - it looks like Medici/Sannitz should be the correct 2nd place finsher of THIS RALLY (in their 1976 Championship series).